I want to thank my many friends who have warned me about this movie through emails and their own blogs. I know they wanted me to know the concerns surrounding this movie because they know and love our family and want what is best for us. I am grateful to have friends who care.
I have been wrestling with what to say regarding this topic. I started receiving these warnings last week and they’re still coming. One friend said she sent it to me because she knew I’d check it out. I’ve spent about 6 hours researching the movie, the books it was adapted from, and the author, Philip Pullman. I read websites, blogs, newspaper and in-person interviews, and even watched a few videos of Mr. Pullman answering some tough questions. The reason for my obsession? I don’t like bandwagons. They are overcrowded and smell bad due to a few of their facts being wrong or exaggerated. Since I’m more of the research-and-think-things-through-before-forming-my-own-opinion kind of girl, I decided to do just that. I’m pretty sure I’ve been down every rabbit hole available with the exception of actually reading the books myself. After taking in all of the information I could find, I have some observations I’d like to offer. But before I begin, I want to make a VERY clear statement that I am not at this time endorsing the author, his books, the movie coming out next month, or atheism in any manner. I am a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ and will never be ashamed to say so.
When Benny and I saw the trailer for The Golden Compass in the theater, we decided it would be our family Christmas movie this year. The effects are spectacular, having children has warmed us to talking animals, and we love a good mystery/suspense/fantasy story. It seemed like a Narnia-ish kind of movie, which we loved. Benny bought the book so I could read it before the movie came out, but it has been collecting dust on my bookshelf. Fast forward to last week when the warnings began to arrive by email. I was very surprised. I talked with Benny and we decided not to see the movie. I threw the book in the trash bin of my office because I wouldn’t want to support anything anti-Christian. Throwing a book away about killed me. Books are my friends. 😉
I didn’t have peace about it so as the emails kept coming, I kept reading. I noticed that all of the warnings were pointing back to the article on snopes.com. So I read the article. I followed all of the links and resources and found that in several places the author was mis-quoted or someone’s opinion about the books were stated as fact. I read a lot of people’s comments that began with “I heard”. Not very many of the people commenting and interviewing had actually read the books. I started to get the same feeling I got a few years ago when this very thing happened with the Harry Potter books. I actually read the words of someone that said J.K. Rowling was a witch and promoted witchcraft because she wears pointy shoes! So it was time to dig deeper. What I found was disturbing. Lots of Christians persecuting this man and his works because he’s an atheist. Atheists yelling about New Line Cinemas catering to the Christians by removing the religious elements from the film – the “church” in the story is corrupt and they want that portrayed. People saying Mr. Pullman hates God. And everyone pointing back to snopes.com which was largely a collection of emailed opinions from readers or people who “had heard” something and wanted to pass it on.
Snopes is A reference, not THE reference. Even Barbara Mikkelson, half of the snopes team says, “The moral of the story is that you should never take anyone’s word for anything, including ours. That is why we list our references at the bottom of our pages, so that you can independently verify our work. We are the Urban Legends Reference Pages — we provide references so that people can do their own research. We do not claim to be the ultimate arbiters of fact.”
The snopes claim was:The 2007 film The Golden Compass is based on a series of books with anti-religious themes. After all that research I have to agree with them. But I also have to agree with the author regarding a few of his “anti-religious beliefs”. One of the most informative interviews I read was this one in which Mr. Pullman does in fact confirm some of why I won’t jump on HIS bandwagon. But I think he is right in railing against a corrupt church. I do too. Does that make me anti-religious? He says he doesn’t hate God – as has been reported by many. He hates the horrible things believers/the church/organized religion has done in the name of God. It has happened throughout history and we see that happening today not just with “other people”, but in some of our own churches.
I was in turmoil over this post because I have been frustrated a long time with how to address the ignorance and prejudice I see in a lot of religious circles. I’m annoyed by the hateful things Christians have been saying and the knee-jerk, angry, and fear-filled reactions from the people who haven’t verified their facts or read the books. By the time the FWD button has been hit, there is an emotional build up. That passion then fuels ignorance in warnings, insults, and discussions.
In several of the interviews I read, Mr. Pullman seemed to take issue with believers not walking our walk. We just talk like we do. Ouch. Mr. Pullman said it’s too bad we as believers don’t live like the Gospels say we should. I can see where he gets that. We are usually uncomfortable with major differences of opinion over anything spiritual. Those we disagree with are sometimes shunned or persecuted themselves. We forget the love we’re supposed to be treating each other with. We don’t allow for much exploration and examination of faith. We tend to expect people to just accept and when someone has deep, serious questions that beg for answers, we get frustrated that they don’t just “get it” and join our cause. Could this be where he is coming from?
Mr. Pullman has a very humanistic take on life. I believe he’s more agnostic than atheistic. Either way, he doesn’t share my values as a believer. I understand that. Does he still have something to offer through his writing? Probably. I have read a few articles by Christians who like his books and saw a spiritual message in them…not the one he may have intended, but good lessons none the less. Pullman has been called the male J.K. Rowling. As far as my research has led me, Rowling wasn’t trying to write the Potter books with Christian themes, but they are there anyway. I’ve read them. Is Pullman dangerous? Are his books dangerous? I don’t think he’s any more dangerous than he was in 1995 when his books were first published. 12 years ago. That’s a long time. Where were the warnings then?
It’s sad that it sometimes takes something like this to hold a mirror up to ourselves to see where our faith is. Do we support the film or don’t we?…and why? We need to use that mirror when we are considering ANY entertainment – movies, books, and T.V. shows. So here are my questions: Why is our faith challenged by atheism more than inappropriate sex, violence, and some of the other things we accept as normal in our T.V. shows and movies? Why haven’t I received warnings about shows that promote a lifestyle God wouldn’t approve of? I can give some examples of the shows I like that fit that description. I’m guilty too. One of the shows I’ve loved the past two years features a bunch of surgeons who sleep with each other every chance they get. yikes. That’s not the main focus of the show, but it’s a pretty big one.
I know sometimes it’s hard to know what to speak up about and what to remain silent on. I like to think believers have good intentions when they do jump on these bandwagons. I just wish it wasn’t so selective. Since I don’t know a single person who has read these books, I’m going to read the books myself over the next few weeks and blog about what I find. But right now, here’s what I want us to think about:
- We usually find what we’re looking for in books and movies. Good or bad.
- Sometimes we get what we don’t bargain for. Good and bad.
- There are spiritual lessons to be learned all around us – in both the good and bad. We shouldn’t go looking for the bad, but we shouldn’t assume everything is bad either.
- We need to know the facts then make an informed decision.
- We need to love and not judge those who come to different conclusions than we do. That is the way to walk our walk. There is only one judge and our role is that of the sinner. Sinners don’t get to judge other sinners…and we all are.
- We need to pray for Mr. Pullman. Like my friend told me yesterday, he could very well be a Prodigal son.
- What is it in us that wants to warn others? Is it true concern, or is it slacktivism?
As for the questioning of the faith of children, or the molding and shaping of that faith, (a concern that has been raised in this discussion), that’s for tomorrow’s post.
Thanks for doing the research and sharing your thoughts. I am also hesitant to jump on bandwagons — for the same reasons you give. I will do some more checking before I decide on this movie.
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I really don’t know much about the book, not having read it and not being able to understand the trailer (it was not closed captioned) My husband got the book and read it. He stated he was not sure it was appropriate for our 10 year old and that it was not the story he had thought it would be.
I told him about this post, he said that he would read your post and then write you a comment about his impression. So if he gets a chance, maybe you will hear from him soon.
Thanks for the prayers for my parents, we don’t have any results from the many test they both have had but hope for some news soon. Thankfully things are better and I was able to come home today. Kyle was doing a fine job but think they missed having me around here.
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Well said Niki. I have also received the emails of warnings, and even overheard a woman in church behind me talking about it this morning. I haven’t had the time to do the research myself, so I want to say thank you. Not only did you do it, but you listed your references so I can go there too! I hate to admit this, but I was one of those people who listened to all of the untruths about the Harry Potter series. Recently I did the research, and discovered how wrong I was. I went out and bought the entire series, and sat down with my 11 and 9 year old to read it together. Needlesss to say, the books are wonderful, and we can’t stop reading them. The kids have left me behind, and I am trying to catch up to them, so we can read together on Thanksgiving break. I am glad you shared your opinion on this bandwagon effect, and shared your research with us. I look forward to your next post!
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If we, as those who claim to be followers of Christ, were as busy being lights and cities on a hill as we are screaming at/boycotting supposed ungodliness (something Jesus never called us to), Mr. Pullman, as well as countless others, might actually be Jesus’s followers instead of disenfranchised agnostics/atheists.
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Hi, came over here by way of Jared. I have read all the books and I had no idea they were going to cause such a fire storm. In the same way you have to suspend reality when you read CS Lewis’ work, you have to with Pullman. He uses words that were uncomfortable, like damen ,which sound like demon to me, when he talks about the animal half of the people, kinda like the spirit animals in Indian beliefs. Ok, thats weird but no weirder than the tree spirits in the Lion witch and the Wardrobe. I also read a few of Harry Potter books when they came out because I wanted to know for myself what all the brewhaha was about. I chose not to let my kids read those or see the movie because of the glorifacation of witch craft to the extreem.But they were well written and the english humor appealed to me very much. I dunno, the Golden compass reminds me of the usual story of a quest to make things right that you read over and over in fantasy books, no worse or no better.
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Niki – I knew you would write about this – just knew it. And I’m so glad you did! I have not had the time to put into it that you did, and I LOVE your quest for truth and your willingness to share it with everyone.
Now…if only this were circulating instead of the snopes article e-mails – which I’ve received about 10 different times already.
Keep on sister!
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Very informative – thanks.
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You have peeked my interest on this subject and the movie. And you nailed me on some things namely watching shows that do not always have a Christian theme or undercurrent of the show.
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GREAT post! Well done! Excuse me while I put my fears back where they belong. 🙂
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Hello, found your blog via Redheaded Stepchild. 🙂
My two cents is… these are some of my all-time favorite books, and I’m thrilled to hear someone actually take the time to explore them, instead of condemning them based on slackivism. (fabulous term, btw!) There is some adult content in the books, esp. the third, that would make me hesitant to share with a child.
But there are some fabulous stories in these books and lessons of finding inner strength, patience, tolerence, acceptance, courage, etc. It’s quite a stretch to say these books are anti-Christian. It’s not the Bible, it’s fantasy. But it’s fantastic reading, if you’re a fan of fantasy.
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Which is more troubling — a work of fiction that suggests people should be wary of some religious institutions, or a religious institution that suggests people should be wary of some works of fiction? I’ve long felt anyone who believes God is threatened or offended by mere storytelling has simply lost his or her way. It is good to see someone putting The Golden Compass rabble-rousing in perspective.
I do not share your faith, but I do share a desire that all faiths should be focused keenly on love, tolerance, humility, etc. There is no virtue in stirring up hate and fear in response to a faerie tale. The widespread negative reaction to The Golden Compass reinforces, even legitimizes, outsiders’ criticisms of Christian institutions and social movements. Faith is debased to the degree it is used as a bludgeon against fiction, and uplifted to the degree it can be turned away from malice toward art.
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I made my way here through the Redheaded Stepchild, and I want to thank you for your post. As a librarian, I’m a firm believer in an author’s right to tell his story, and to have it available to be read by those who choose it. If we were to remove all the books from library shelves written by those whose beliefs/politics/morals/ethics offend us, there wouldn’t be anything left! Thanks for not jumping on the bandwagon!
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Niki: Great post. Thanks for sharing your findings. I don’t have kids so I dont’ have to worry about the decision to take them or boycott the movie. I did see the preview and thought it looked like a highly entertaining movie I would enjoy. I have to admit I was disappointed to hear there were themes that go against my Christian beliefs, so I’m not quite as anxious to see it, but still may.
This came up last night at our Ladies’ Bible study. Several of the ladies were quoting the Snopes article and I thought about you and your post. My friend who is a children’s librarian, straightened out some of the fallacies mentioned from the Snopes article, especially the part about it not speaking directly against God. However she did make a good point worth considering. The books are not child-friendly, like the Harry Potter books. The vocabulary words and abstract concepts are too advanced for most children, so there is a natural barrier there preventing lots of kids from reading them. However, when the movie version comes out, that natural barrier is removed and the stories/propaganda/info (whatever you wanna call it) reach a larger audience. So anyway, not telling anyone what to do here, just offering another point of consideration.
It is interesting that there aren’t more people railing against other movies with ungodly themes. I definitely think there are tons of movies out there that are far worse for kids (and for polluting our own minds with trash). For example, when I went to see “Ransom”, an R-rated movie about the kidnapping of a child, there was an 8 year old in the seat beside me. Who in their right mind would traumatize a child by subjecting them to that – not only the R rating aspect, but more importantly the subject matter?
So anyway, I’m not a parent but I’ve counseled children for 10 years. It’s my humble opinion that it’s not so much about whether you let your kids see this movie as much as it is about the kind of parent you are the other 22 hours of the day. If you are raising your kids in a loving environment where you are involved in their lives, open to them asking questions about the world around them (even the parts that aren’t exactly like your own), and a good example of integrity, that goes so much further than someone who forbids their children to see any controversial movie, but does nothing to provide a stable foundation for growth and reflection.
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Hi Niki, only found your site by googling the topic. (I got one of the WARNING!!!! emails from a friend & I am always sceptical of them.)
I agree with a lot of what you say. There is no more need for a kneejerk reaction towards this author than to any of the other God haters around.
The problem for me remains that the author is denigrating the church (which you don’t deny). Now as Christians we can wisely agree that the church is not perfect, in some cases far from it. However we can see the beauty & benefit to the world that it is meant to be. A non-believer reading/seeing Mr Pullmans views doesn’t have that reference point.
In my opinion it is not a good idea to promote these works (nor would I condemn them) & when dealing with them with children I would suggest discussing the issues (as I did with my children regarding the Harry Potter series – which they absolutely love).
Lets not be reactionary, but lets at least be cautionary.
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What does it cost to take your family to a movie these days? Let’s be conservative and say $75 including snacks. I’d hazard to say, you’d end up leaving anyway. Why waste so much time, money and effort on a movie that is already espoused to be anti-Christian? Choose Enchanted this Christmas season and avoid all the ruckus.
I’ve posted a link to another blog on my site which talks about the book in detail.
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Yes David, that’s my point. Caution is good…in all aspects of deciding what is for you to support or rally against. Being reactionary isn’t helpful unless you know what the heck you’re talking about.
I just want to say again that I am not an advocate for this film or the book series. I’m only on Chapter One and already I’m thinking this is not a children’s book. Maybe for teenagers, but not small children the ages of my three. I’m holding out for my own thoughts on the book until I’m done reading it.
I hope you all understood that my post was more about the bandwagon syndrome than it was trying to change your minds about Pullman’s stories. I appreciate all of the comments and I’m glad we got a discussion going. This topic will not be going away anytime soon. It will probably increase as the movie release date draws closer, so we might as well get our heads on straight about it and talk it out in a safe place. Decide for yourself if it’s worth your time and money. Keep reading and talking. It can be a catalyst for some great faith discussions.
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Here is our take Niki. This was our general rule when our kids were that little. We were very careful with what they saw, knowing that what they take in through their senses stays with them. Children can remember word for word movies, shows, and songs that stimulate their emotions We felt that they could have more influence on them than our talks with our children. This wasn’t a popular decision for us. Our friends and mostly our family thought of us as too strict. Our thought, when they get older and more apt to understand the meaning behind the bells and whistles, then they can watch it. So we chose not let them even see certain Disney movies till they were older. There still may be a few they haven’t seen. If you know my kids, you know that they are just fine, social, outgoing, and friendly. Yet we chose to err on the side of caution, rather than opening them up to every animated movie that came along. Our kids are only teenagers, they aren’t quite done growing. (They would disagree if you asked them.) 🙂 But I think it was the best decision for our family. Sometimes we watched the movie first and then if we liked it, they could watch it. This isn’t about being afraid, or narrow minded. Again for us it’s simply what we felt the Lord led us to do in this particular area. It is our job to protect them from not only things that we would consider harmful, but not everything that is good is profitable for you. Each family must make that decision. At least that is our take on movies.
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Thanks for the good discussion here. My kids are all over 16 now, so I’m in a bit of a different space to some/most of you. As an Aussie I’m sure there are also cultural differences at play here too.
To clarify my earlier comment, in thinking personally, as a Christian parent, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments & feel I can manage the impact on my family.
By manage I mean if your kids are at an age where they can really think for themselves, its no good just banning a movie/book using the ‘because I say so’ rule. Better to explain what the exact problem is & let them know you would prefer they not watch/read it. This allows them the choice to watch it with a critical eye. When the Harry Potter series came out (& my kids were younger) I discussed the issue of witchcraft with all my kids before I allowed them the choice to read the books.
However, if I put my evangelical hat on, it would be terrible if this movie/book helped a non-believer choose to turn away from God.
Once again, thanks for the good discussion.
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Well said Nikki. In the store, I wouldn’t even touch the books- like my flesh would be burned- is that not completly unreasonable or what?? In the future, I’ll make it a point to do the proper research. t
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Okay, I won’t just be a lurker! 🙂 I loved that you took the time to do the research and share with all of us. As soon as I received yet another email this morning concerning this matter, I replied to all with your blog site. As with Tonya, we are considered strict by limiting what our children watch and (in JD’s case) read. I look forward to hearing what else you have to say about the books.
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Fantastic discussion!
Two things… then I’ll get back to baking shortbread.
First – it’s been a couple of days since I’ve read your post. I had only seen posters of the movie, and wasn’t in any way interested in seeing it. (Only because fantasy movies bore me. A shame, I know.) Over the past few days, I went ahead and researched this movie/book/series on my own. I’ve read probably 20 articles about Pullman and The Golden Compass in a search to see where the author is coming from, and where the movie is headed.
Then – being unable to afford the series at this time – I reserved a copy at my local library. (Sadly I’m 17th in line.)
However, the articles – no matter what the slant (pro, against, indifferent) – gave me real reason for concern.
I discussed what I learned with my husband and children at the dinner table.
This is what I learned:
Pullman “hopes to undermine the church”. This is not an overstatement, but a direct quote. The book/series starts out with very adult material, and ends with the children (representing Adam and Eve) killing God.
To which my eldest son (13) replied “Why would I want to read that?”.
It’s a fair question.
So, I’ll read the book (probably long after the movie comes out) and re-post here.
Second: Speaking of bandwagons… this “anti-church”, “anti-God”, “anti-religion” thing is seeping into the churches. There is a fine line between admitting a sometimes sinful and destructive history and marching with the God/church/religion haters.
Pullman is not unlike other secular/atheistic writers who are gaining a tremendous amount of popular press these days (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchenson, etc.).
To make a parallel: I remember a time when history taught that Native Americans were savages and White Men were saviours of the Americas, bringing modernity and the gospel to them (and sadly a few diseases). Then, I remember (during college) that history had been revised, and Native Americans were seen as wise, earth-loving people. Now, children are being taught that the White Man is the savage and bringer of all things evil. You see the pendulum swing?
It is good to admit where we have faltered, sinned, and made grotesque errors. It is not okay, however, to begin to undermine the body of Christ alongside a professed atheist. If you’re a christian, that is.
Just my humble opinion.
Back to the shortbread!
-Jennifer-
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Here I go sounding like I’m defending the books, which I’m still not. I’m not far into the first one. I agree it’s too mature for kiddos…say under 12. I’m still not able to give a real opinion until I’m done with it. BUT, the main characters do not kill God in the 3rd book. 1. He’s a self-proclaimed God – a false God – not THE GOD and Creator of all things that we know in our universe. 2. He dies while in their care – they do not kill him. A friend who I just found out has actually read the books told me this. I also read it in a companion book to the books. Not defending – just stating fact as it is written in the books.
Because we are good friends and I know you love me, I’m going to assume you weren’t saying I am marching with the God/Church/religion haters. That’s what it sounded like. Or were you speaking of one of the comments made? Do you feel I am beginning to undermine the body of Christ alongside a professed atheist? I hope not. That is not my intention at all. Please clear that up for me Jen.
I’m working on the next post…
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Hi Jen,
I don’t know you, but I agree with Niki’s question – as it sounded like you were lumping her into the “anti-God, anti-church” stuff that was/is seeping into the church.
I guess I kind of see your perspective re: the bandwagon that you speak of, but I don’t agree with it. I think so much of what is being construed as “anti-church” is actually Christians who are “anti-complacency about habitual and intentional sin in our churches” because those two kinds of sin will undermine the church if we let it. In that regard, I see the outspokenness of Christians about hypocrisy, entrenchment in traditions that are really “disputable matters”, and other such things in the church as no different than Paul’s letters to the Corinthians. It’s not anti-church in the slightest, and his words are not hard on the people, but they are hard on the behaviors – that is what we must shoot for as we attempt to live the Greatest Commands, no?
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Oh my… no Niki, I wasn’t lumping you in with church/God/religion haters. I know you better than that! My sincerest apologies to you for the ramble that made it sound so. I was just warning readers about the extremes to which some will subscribe. (And to clarify: I don’t subscribe to the “sweep-it-all under-the-rug and let’s continue doing what we’ve always done” mentality either.)
This very year I witnessed a congregation lose it’s grip on godliness and watched (and preached and prayed) as they allowed blatant, chronic sin to hide the light of Christ. Maddeningly frustrating, it brought me to my knees and to some very difficult conversations.
At the same time I was deeply concerned for an old friend in a different country who had cast Christ and christians aside and now views religion as entertaining at best and dangerous at the worst.
Imagine how difficult it was for me to defend the body of Christ to this gentleman (knowing what some in it are capable of) while at the same time helping to discipline/restore the people who were committing the very acts that brought this man to the point where he lost his faith.
It was during this time that I found solace in the book of Jeremiah of all places!
“Ham” – I appreciate your comment. I hope I have helped to clear my opinon up to make it understandable.
I agree with you – the complacency about habitual and intentional sin will undermine the church faster than any secular literary work ever will. And, it has.
But I must be careful when the enemy of my enemy becomes my friend.
-Jennifer-
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OK, this feels like jumping into an already-too-full party!
I’m a graphic artist. I have created monsters, bogey-men and done superimposition work for YEARS. My girls, when young, sat in my lap or near me in a swing/bouncer/etc. and watched mommy create ‘things’ on the computer based on information I got from a client, or the flitterings of my own imagination.
As a result of this, my girls LOVE, LOVE, LOVE computer graphics/animation. I have a girlfriend whose daughter could not watch the hit Disney “Monsters, Inc.” as it terrified her. My girls can watch Godzilla (the one with Matthew Broderick) or The Mummy, and the ‘scary’ parts bring them to say “Mom, how did they make that sand/hair/glass/water, look SO real?” My girls have an appreciation of the fact the imagination is a wonderful thing, and what comes out of it has the ability to change the world in many ways.
Was witchcraft around before J.K. Rowling brought up the idea of a school of witches and wizards? Uh, yeah. Were there anti-christian people before this author….and many others? Uh, yeah. I think that I agree with Niki on some things that there are ‘alarmists’ and that people often react like frightened sheep……a quick bleat and then turn as a group and run. Nevermind the thing that triggered it was a blowing pile of leaves, or a playful pair of kittens practicing their hunting skills.
I have taught my girls (7 and 14) that before you are afraid of something, try to understand it. Before you freak out and run, do take a good look at things and learn from it. This of course, does not apply to playing in traffic or running with scissors or other maternal must-haves. The point being that being educated and thinking for yourself is not just a good thing anymore, it’s MANDATORY to function in this world we live in now.
Back to “Monsters,Inc.” Was the purpose to terrify children and thus result in an epidemic of parents having to sleep with an acrobatic child or two? Having done some work with the guys over at Pixar I can tell you that this, among other items in the Disney/Pixar cannon, was the work of someone with a profound imagination…..PROFOUND. Taking the concept of the ‘thing under the bed’ and making IT afraid of US. You have to see the creativity and the idea behind the action….and then if you don’t like it, fine. But I don’t think that means since my girlfriend and I disagree with what we let our respective kids watch…..that we need to send out an APB for Scully or any other character. She has her thoughts and I have mine. Huggy huggy, kissy kissy, cookie anyone?
I have seen the Golden Compass promos/trailers. I haven’t read the books. I have nowhere near the research Niki has…..but I do know this; the story is somewhat intriguing, the cast is big names with abundant talent and the effects look to be incredible. Do I think my children are going to become the anti-Christ from watching it? Uhm, no. Do I think that there is the option to discuss views, thoughts, feelings, theories and doctrine? Uhm, yes. Do I think that my girls have the sense God gave a goat…..and don’t need me to forever rush over and cover their eyes to prevent them from ever seeing anything remotely controversial or challenging to who and what they are?
Well, DUH.
I have never followed convention. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in Heaven and Hell. I have a tattoo, I ride a motorcycle, and I have a Guinness with my pizza or my burger. I use the s-word sometimes. I pay my taxes, I work hard at my job, I love and support my children. I’m faithful to my husband and loyal to my friends. I donate blood, I’ve held the hand of a dying friend. I’m a slob in my car and a neat-freak on my desk. I love chocolate and sometimes eat things I shouldn’t.
Like anything else in life, you can pick any of those things and judge me by that one factor alone, or you can look at me as a whole person, good and bad. Strong and imperfect. Such is life. There is value in anything, good or bad, to learn and grow.
Learn that….now or later, and you’re better off.
My $.02.
-Taj
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Hi, I’m Jennifer’s friend who views religion as entertaining at best, and dangerous at the worst. This discussion, unfortunately, just makes my view stronger. Fiction is fiction (redundant, I know). Your reaction to this piece of fiction is no stranger than my reaction to any other piece of fiction that becomes the obsession of a religion. You are afraid of a book, because it seems to be evil and warps children’s minds. Welcome to my world, and your book. You may believe that you are dealing with something new, from my perspective, you are looking in a mirror, you just don’t realise it.
Sorry if this offends you, but I don’t mean it to be. I am merely pointing out that your objection to this movie/book, exactly mirrors my views of another book.
ttfn
Cory
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After watching the movie trailer I have only one more thing to add:
Evil to those who seek it.
It’s a classic story formula of good versus evil. If you see gOD in that story, that’s your invention, not the author’s.
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Cory, I wonder if you read my post at all. Unless you specify who your comment is intended for, I can only assume it was directly to me since this is my blog. So let me point you back to my post. 1. I never said I objected to this movie or the books, or that I fear them. 2. If I see God in this story (when I read it that is) then it’s because I AM looking for Him. Refer back to #1 on my list of things to think about. I look for God in everything because He is everywhere. 3. The discussion here has been really good, and pretty intelligent so I don’t understand what exactly has made your view stronger. Which view would that be? That religion is entertaining or dangerous? 4. Exactly what am I supposed to be seeing in this mirror that I don’t realize? Those do seem like fighting words. You are welcome to leave your thoughts here as long as you remain respectful. Thanks for stopping by.
P.S. I love the classic story formula of Good vs. Evil. Most of my favorite books follow that theme. Life itself follows that theme.
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Niki… enjoyed the marathon phonecall last night. Hope you got to sleep in a little bit today. 🙂
I explained to you the “enemy of my enemy” concept over the phone, and I thought I should probably clear it up here too…
There is a segment of the church that is hypocritical and destructive.
This pains me. It pains Mr. Pullman.
The “hypocritcial” bunch is my enemy (for lack of a better term). The “hypocritical” bunch is also the enemy of Mr. Pullman.
Mr. Pullman hopes to undermine the church.
I hope to restore it.
We have similar vantage points on the same issue… but very different motivations for speaking out.
I must be careful when the enemy of my enemy becomes my friend.
Does that help?
Also… I was happy to see that Cory read in on the discussion.
After reading his comments, I can see that he was actually disagreeing with me, not with you. His comments here were quite mild, dampening his viewpoint for the sake of not offending you.
He sees the Bible as a book of fiction that warps minds… children and adults alike. And, he finds it ironic that I would see a secular book of fiction as dangerous… since that’s what he sees the Bible as. So… he hopes that I would see a reflection of his viewpoint… (mirrored image).
You see what I have to work with here? LOL!
Loving the discussion… thanks for letting me in on it.
-Jennifer-
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Jennifer~
I really enjoyed our chat – if you can call it that – I think it becomes something else entirely when it lasts for 5 hours. 😉 Catching up is always good!
I appreciate you taking the time to clarify some of your statements here. You’re always welcome to the discussion!
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Leave it to you my dear friend and sister in Christ not to take anything for granted or at face value and do the research yourself. I have to admit that I have been caught up in the emails and such myself without checking on anything.
I am also guilty of being another one of those that didn’t like the idea of Harry Potter. I should have checked into it myself when I found that a good friend and strong Christian friend was reading them and so was her son. I have bought the first one lately but have not had a chance to read it.
I don’t usually watch the shows on TV that have all of the bad stuff but I do sometimes find myself reading some novels that I would not watch on TV. I guess that it doesn’t seem as bad when I can’t actually see it, but now that I think about it since I can’t see maybe my pictures in my mind could be worse! (probably not though, you know me!) This makes me more curious – so that I need to look into this myself.
Take care – later!
Les
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My friend Daniel is in China and what he calls “The Great Firewall of China” isn’t letting him access my blog for him to leave his comments. Here are his thoughts on this post:
Thanks Niki – a brief response 🙂
Most of us see the world as we are more than as it really is. As reflected in his thirdway.org.uk interview, Pullman intends to communicate a story rather than trying to distract or confuse believers.
My late grandfather inadvertently shared with me the following phrase that I try to uphold: What you find praiseworthy in others, you should carefully imitate; what you find in them defective, you should in yourself amend.
The more interesting question, to me, is what limits and boundaries does this work offer to the souls of those who so viciously criticise it? Most of the time, those who are most violently repressing information or ideas are those that struggle with that issue themselves… in the pattern of how when we point one finger at another, we point four back towards ourselves.
I hope that we can be called to walk our talk…
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1 Thess 5:21-22
21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
NIV
Amazing how just two inspired verses can sum up my two long, rambling rants. Sigh. Some day, I’ll learn.
-Jennifer-
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Hi Niki,
I half-read/half-skimmed your post (I’m pre-coffee. Asking the brain to read -and- think is a lot, heh). My thoughts, jumbled, and directed at the generic sense of ‘you’, not pointedly at specific individuals.
I’ve read the first two books, as I noted in my blog, and frankly, the church in the books has almost nothing to distinguish it from the illustrious history of the Roman Catholic Church. Note that I didn’t say Christianity. My mental image of The Church of the books was oh.. the Catholic Church (governing body, not the ordinary average person) during the life of Galileo.
Overwhelmingly, I’ve seen it so far as a story of a child who, because she is still a child, can save the world from bad things. Do I think the author’s personal religious opinions are woven through the story? Yes. As I briefly mentioned, I think it’s a bit heavy with the brush actually. I find it as obnoxious to read as books that are on the other side of the coin, being very pro-religion.
I just want the story. Which is why I doubt I’ll ever read the books a second time. No matter how very real he managed to make Lyra, and no matter how poignant her struggles, I do feel like I’m being led along someone’s agenda. I resent that, especially in children’s literature. His Dark Materials isn’t at all like series such as Narnia or Harry Potter.
The one value I think the Pullman books have, with the overt anti-Church message, is that it does bring into conversation religious issues. For those of you who are Christian, this series *might* be a useful one with older children, to read and talk about religion. Things like- what is the simple message of Christ? Do the religious leaders in the books exemplify that? In the real world, can you think of people or groups of people who are examples of Christ’s message, and ones who are like the Church in Pullman’s books?
Because the reality is that a lot of people (of any religion) simply –label themselves– as being XYZ. They don’t actually internalize that spirituality, and they don’t shine outward the fruits of that inner belief. And I think these books are more interesting to read than something like Pilgrim’s Progress.
However, I think a lot of kids who read these books are just going to see a story about a girl who has some mysterious task that will save the world, and a lot of the adults around her are manipulative and corrupt. …. Sadly, given the world around us, and the news I read every day, I think that’s a pretty believable fantasy world.
I don’t think any parent should feel obligated to buy or borrow books and have their kids read them, just because it’s a best seller or having a movie made from it. But I do think that there is a better method of discerning valuable and appropriate books than frantic email alert spam and bulletin board hysteria, and while snopes is certainly one valuable resource in checking the veracity of something, it’s not always unbiased.
If a person hasn’t read a book, they have no business condemning it. “I’ve not read it, but other people seem to think there could be an issue with it, I’m not sure I want to read it or have my kids read it” is an honest assessment. “This book is bad because other people say so” is letting someone else do your thinking for you.
If the source is one you trust, perhaps a friend or relative, and they’ve actually read the book, then you can form a reasonable basis for deciding that you’d prefer to *not* read it.
We all do this all the time, actually. It’s just that topics like romance novels or sci-fi or thrillers or westerns, biographies and histories, technical manuals and cookbooks, don’t tend to generate the level of controversy that happens when someone mixes in religion.
Now, since I know a couple of you from many years ago, I will say that if I were asked if I thought these books would suit your families, I’d probably say no, not for the little ones, and maybe not for the older ones. They incorporate notions of sentient animal familiars, witches, alternate universes, magic. I personally don’t have an issue with this, but I would expect many of you would. I don’t think these books glamourize such things. They’re way too grim for that. But I think what would bother you most about them, is how religion AKA The Church is painted so very negatively. Now, I think the religious background we share is one that has *nothing* to do with Churches such as the one in the books. We weren’t raised in a church that was essentially a major political power in the world. But kids might not really see any difference between one church and another. It would really depend on whether you felt like doing book discussions and talking about the very real issues the books bring up, as compared with the kind of religious faith and life you want for your family.
(I’m going to go post this response on my blog, since I’ve been wanting to form some sort of response to the snopes hysteria for a couple of weeks now)
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Niki,
I really enjoyed your take on this. I’m at the same spot right now, because my youth group kids have read this book and some of them really liked it. I didn’t think any thing of it until I started getting emails. I decided to check it out on some sites and I really enjoyed this interview with Philip Pullman because I found it unemotional and insightful as to his motivations.http://www.thirdway.org.uk/past/showpage.asp?page=3949
What I really want to emphasize to my youth group about all issues like this is to keep your helmet of salvation firmly in place and take every thought captive to Christ instead of being allowing them to be taken captive by other things. I think in these books and others that are not written by Christians, the story of Christ can be very obvious (Harry Potter, the movie: Contact, Tale of Two Cities, etc.) Christ has been popping up in fiction for a long time, even in stories written by people who claim to hate Him. I’m not scared of these books or movies, I just think it’s important to know about the author before you dive in for a couple of reasons: 1) to know what point of view you’re coming from–is he criticizing the church out of hatred or a desire for change; 2) to be careful about how much of it you “buy” in terms of truth–sometimes it can be easy to confuse humanistic views with humanitarian views and they are very different. I just think we have to go on with our shields up and view everything through the mind of Christ whether it’s CS Lewis, Philip Pullman or JK Rowling.
Good work on stemming the tide of blind persecution. Perfect love casts out fear, no?
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[…] thinking things through) If you would like to read the first part of this discussion, click here. As I said I would, I recently finished reading the first book in the series His Dark Materials, by […]
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very interesting, but I don’t agree with you
Idetrorce
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They cherry pick facts to fit their us vs them view. ,
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driver97 -What does that even mean? Who cherry picks facts?
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Schools alone cannot do this; but together, schools, families, and communities can develop creative solutions to meet the diverse needs of all young people. ,
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Hope your voice returns to you soon. ,
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