O.K. Betty. You asked for it…
My dictionary defines “Saint” in the following terms:
1. A person officially recognized esp. by canonization, as being entitled to public veneration and capable of interceding for people on earth.
2. A person who has died and gone to heaven.
3. A member of any various religious groups, esp. a Latter-Day Saint.
4. An extremely virtuous person.
Then I pulled out my Thesaurus. It had these words listed: angelic, godly, holy, righteous, upright, upstanding, virtuous, worthy, devout, God-fearing, pious, sainted, etc…
O.K. So Christians are some of these things. I am not Catholic, so I don’t really understand the whole sainthood thing although I am familiar with a few like St. Nicholas, St. Patrick, St. Valentine, and St. Francis. I know that some call Mary and the apostles saints. There are many men and women honored with that title, but I’ve never met one of them.
Enter the denomination I grew up in. As I mentioned in my last post, we have a big thick book that lists all of our “sister” churches, or as we like to put it, the churches in the brotherhood. It is titled, “Where The Saints Meet”. I have always thought that title smacked of indignation for any other “brotherhood” of believers. This title unnerves me. Since when do we have the right to think we are the remnant of true believers, and everyone else is just a bit left of center, or even way off the path. I have been a recovering legalist for several years now, and though I still get twinges of “but I know I’m right and the scripture REALLY says this”, I am disappointed that I was taught to think that way. I was actually chastised as a teen for visiting youth group with friends from school. Our church didn’t even have one! Instead of some of the adults in my life being grateful for me being friends with other Christian teens, it seemed they were worried that I was socializing with kids that were being led astray and would end up in hell. Do other denominations feel that way? Some of the above mentioned people would be upset by my even saying we are a denomination. (rolling my eyes)
I have really struggled with my feelings about my denomination and at times I’ve wanted to flee, and have. Then I was made aware of some “unusual” churches in our brotherhood. Churches that changed their name on their sign so they would attract those that are turned off by the reputation we have gained as know-it-alls and exclusionists. Churches that welcome unwed pregnant women. Churches that gave vast amounts of money to support not only their own ministries within the body, but ministries in their communities started by other churches and organizations. A church that placed ashtray cans outside of their doors so the street kids who attended would get the message that they are welcome and wanted. Churches that had ministers and elders that had experienced the horrors of divorce firsthand. A church that had a minister come forward to admit an affair, and instead of showing him the door, they are surrounding him and loving him and his wife. (The outcome is not yet decided.)I even attended a church that instead of splitting like I hear about all the time, they merged with another church because they knew they had a lot to gain by building those relationships and becoming one. I attended one of these unusual churches last Sunday…you can read about it in a few days in my next post.
Where the saints meet? I believe that’s heaven. No matter how holy, righteous, God-fearing, and virtuous we become, we are still sinners. Everyone of us. I don’t want to be a part of a group that calls themselves saints when I know I won’t be able to live up to the title. I guess I’ll continue to worship at the places where the sinners meet. It’s where I belong and where I’ll stay until God has perfected me or He comes to take me home.
Since I am a recovering legalist also, I think I know where you are coming from. The word “saint” is used (in some translations) quite often in the NT to refer to Christians–it’s just not commonly used today–I think more people think of the Catholic meaning–and that it is someone that is really perfect. Since the common day use is what the man on the road would think of–I think it’s probably a bad useage of the word, too.
It’s still absurd that we put that word on the signs–I think what the signs really said were “we are the (only) saints”–and I think we agree that is just not true–there are a lot of “saints” out there, that are not in our fellowship!
I do hope we see more and more churches like you described–true “saints” understand they are not perfect and can minister to those that are fellow strugglers.
Keep blogging sister! You have good stuff!
JB
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Niki-
I am continually amazed that you are able to put into words the thoughts I’ve been thinking! You’re so right, and I appreciate the humor you put into subjects like that, that are so pathetic for lack of a better word.
So, when are you writing that book?!
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This is like my third time stopping by your website. Regularly I do not make comments on homepage, but I have to mention that this post really forced me to do so. Really awesome post .
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Denominations are not places where saints meet. Romans 16:16-19;Galatians 1:6-9; 2 John 9-11; all give authority for the reason there are saints in the churches of christ and no other palce. You either believe the Bible..word of God is right or you do not. If you do not them you will propagate all this foolishness and non-sense. You have no way to get to heaven except through the inspired revelation God has given humanity. If men have in the past…and they have taught error and led people to believe they can besaved by any form of doctrine from man is devilish and deserving of eternal hell fire.
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Keith, I do believe the Bible. Wholeheartedly. You and I agree that the ONLY way to heaven is through the inspired revelation God has given humanity, but it’s not the Bible. It’s Jesus Christ. You are also right that any form of doctrine that teaches otherwise is missing the point. Jesus Christ IS the good news, and reading on in Galatians, Paul said the “so-called Christians” were the ones taking away the freedom we have in Christ Jesus, which he says is the gospel message. 2 John is dealing with people denying that Jesus came to earth in a real body and John calls them deceivers. I’m not sure what that has to do with this particular discussion.
So what do you think a saint is? If you’re referring to the righteousness we have because Christ died for our sins, then we’re on the same page. If you’re saying it’s a people who are better than others because they believe they are the only true followers of Christ, then we’re in disagreement, but I will love you anyway. That’s the point of the gospel we’re both holding dear.
One last thought…The Bible (as the Holy Book) is not the final word of authority, God himself is, and He’s still speaking today. The Holy Spirit lives in us and is the counselor Jesus promised us. The Holy Spirit moves us too. The Word is living, breathing, freedom giving, loving…GOOD NEWS, and I’m so thankful.
Thanks for chiming in on this old post. I appreciate feedback. As for the “churches of Christ”, they are my brothers and sisters and I love them.
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Nikki, I stumble across your page, not by accident I’m sure. And am pleasantly surprised. I share your sentiment exactly 🙂 I was looking for that book “where the saints assemble” because the older version showed things that even the 1 cup coc had as difference. They have taken these issues out but in my search i am glad to run across your blog. I am happy to find where the sinners assemble because at least they are real and they relate to God and all His children in a christ like way. not like these coc (judgemental exclusionist)
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Thank you for stopping by, Donale. I’m am happy to tell you that I don’t lump all COC people in the same category. I know MANY that are NOT judgmental exclusionists, and they give me hope for the group as a whole. I have been judged rather harshly by some of my brothers and sisters in the COC, but I have been loved and healed by so many others. I hope you find your place among God’s people no matter what the name on the sign says. 🙂
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I actually think this amazing posting , “Where The Saints
Meet |”, really pleasurable and also the
post was a terrific read. Thanks a lot-Dillon
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Hello Sister! God bless you! I am a young minister of the CoC and came from PR and learning of all these divisions and so forth. Very interesting to say the least…. I would recommend for you guys to read Muscle and a shovel by Michael Shank, if you haven’t done so. He talks about this issue and more, and it could bring some light into the realities of the seven ones in Eph. 4: 4-6. Be bless and be careful with emotions and feelings and by the way, “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 HAS in these last days SPOKEN to us by His Son……Hebrews 1:1. not “still speaking today”…….Just saying…Peter also shed some light in this when he says….. 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power HAS GIVEN TO US ALL THINGS that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of”…Christ(2 Peter 1:2-3) Just continue studying and again be careful with the heart and our own understanding and lean only on God’s…..Take care!
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